Still baffling me...

[Jozzer]

Ok chaps, a while ago I posted that my 2003 ZZR600E was having running issues which I initially put down to fuelling issues, well, turns out it's an ignition problem !...

Who knew eh...

The problem is a weak pinky/red spark emanating from all 4 plugs so I initially pulled all of the electrical joints that I could find and checked/cleaned and sprayed with spray grease then reassembled accordingly, still no different, so, for the past few months I've been meticulously testing/replacing one part after another, some new, some used in the vein hope of curing the problem and it's at this point in time that I'm now about done with it only having the genny and the starter left...

I'm wondering if any of you wise folk on here might be able to suggest where I'm going wrong with it, apart from wasting my time by spending money on parts I don't actually need that is...

I'm completely baffled by the whole affair now and although I'll happily admit I'm no demon when it comes to elastictrickery I'd suggest that replacing an entire electrical system with known good parts is child's play, or so I thought...

Anyone able to give me any pointers before I decide to do something silly like employ that large (14lb) sledgehammer that's been winking at me from the corner of the workshop for the last few months, that or it's got a full tank of fuel and I've got a spare match to hand...

Any help would be most appreciated, many thanks in advance...

Jozzer...

[steve the grease]

Hey I'm no electronics expert by a long way, but, if there are 2 double ended coils feeding the 4 cylinders 1-4 and 2-3 I would think it's very unlikely that both coils have gone flaky and are delivering a poor low quality pink looking spark. Which would tend to suggest , to me anyway that its the device triggering the coils that is probably at fault. Or possibly that the supply to the ECU/ignition module is somehow prejudiced, maybe a poor connection in the ignition switch, dropping a volt or twoin the supply line. I'm sure you have checked that you are getting a good clean 12-13v to the ecu/ ignition. In that case I would suspect that there is an issue in the ECU/ ignition module itself. A company called BBA Reman are good at stuff like that.
____________________
All the above is my personal opinion, you can see my lips move, but I'm talking out of my arse.
I've been riding, and fixing , bikes for 50 years, in that time the more I learn, the less I am absolutely sure of.....

[stinkwheel]

You checked the frame earths on the coils for corrosion?
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Jozzer]

[Jozzer]

[stinkwheel]

[Jozzer]

[Nobby the Bastard]

Depends on the type of coil. One is basically ht twin coils with both sparks being a positive. This requires an earth to complete the circuits. On this sort you can lose a single cylinder.

The other is just a single ht coil where one plug is positive and the other is negative. This wouldn't appreciate an earth oh the ht side on the coil. This sort will mean two cylinders would stop firing if the coil breaks down (or indeed any single item on the ht side.)
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha:"Remember this simple rule - scooters are for men who like to feel the breeze on their huge, flapping cunt lips."
Triumph Sprint ST 1050

[stinkwheel]

Again off a different model but I've seen a few kawasakis get really badly corrosion running up the insulation of the main power feed wire. It'll be the big fat one running from the main fuse up to the front of the bike. Seen it happen at either end. Often white. The main fuse is usually on top of the starter solenoid.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Jozzer]

[Nobby the Bastard]

I'm not talking about the low tension side. You'll always have two small thing wires to the coils.

I'm talking about the high tension side. The leads to the plugs may need the coil earthed depending on the internal design of the coil.

This is the same on all wasted spark systems whether 2 cylinder or 4 cylinder.

If the coils have rubbers holding them to the frame then they dont need an earth to the frame on the ht side.
____________________
trevor saxe-coburg-gotha:"Remember this simple rule - scooters are for men who like to feel the breeze on their huge, flapping cunt lips."
Triumph Sprint ST 1050

[Robby]

With a weak spark on all 4 plugs I would be looking upstream of the coils for a place where they all share a common positive feed, and hoping to find either a dirty/burnt/corroded plug, or a wire that shows high resistance and has corroded inside the insultation.

I'll be interested if you do work it out in the end, because a friend had a ZZR400 years ago that we couldn't find a problem with - but it was starting ok, but had no power and got worse as the miles went by. Could be a similar problem, and it's been nagging at me for years.

[Jozzer]

[Hong Kong Phooey]

[jeffyjeff]

Just a thought: you might be running resistor type spark plugs with suppression type spark plug wires. That would increase the resistance in your high tension circuit and cause weak spark, even with good coils.
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History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men - BOC

[Jozzer]

Right, update time, the spark is now back to a blue colour although still very weak, I've tested all the main feed/earth wires that I can find and none have come back with a bad result, all connectors are clean and have been spray greased prior to reassembly so I now seem to be getting somewhere at least...

The one thing that has cropped up is the massive pull on the battery when the bike turns over, the battery (new) is holding 12.5v but drops to sub 6v when the starter button is engaged and when released the battery will recover back to 12.5 again fairly quickly, the spark although blue is all but non existent when the starter is engaged, very very weak and intermittent...

Does anyone happen to know what's a good minimum voltage the battery should be expected to drop to when turning the motor over, I'm damned sure sub 6v ain't right and I'd suggest 8-9v would more appropriate, got a mate who's lending me a starter motor to see if this makes any difference...

[jeffyjeff]

[Robby]

That is a useful bit of data for diagnosing the spark.

The coils need about 9v to work. More is better, but 9V is generally the bottom end of where they will put out enough voltage to create a spark that will jump the gap. Remember a coil acts as a voltage multiplier (and reduces current by the same amount). So if 30% less voltage is going in, 30% less voltage is coming out.

My first call would also be to replace the battery, it could just be old and knackered. Next job would be to strip and clean the starter motor, and replace the carbon brushes. These are cheap, but do watch a youtube video on doing it first - it's one of those jobs where you seem to need 5 hands unless you know the right technique.

Certainly a job to do when you have enough time to walk away and have a cuppa when its getting confusing, and do to on a well-lit work bench. Not exactly difficult or time consuming, just easy to make silly mistakes. I speak from experience.

[Jozzer]

Well, turns out the left hand switch unit is the culprit so far as the spark issue is concerned, I bought a cheap one on eBay, plugged it in and the spark is back...

Also the NEW!!! battery I bought just a few weeks ago seem to be duff, I put the old one back in and it wanged over like an absolute arse, who knew that a new battery would have had issues...

Thanks fer all yer input chaps, hopefully we're on a winner at last, just glad I didn't lose my rag completely and torch/smash the sodding thing now...

[sickpup]

[Jozzer]

[Nobby the Bastard]

[Jozzer]