Welders

[Rowey]

I'd like to do a bit of welding.

Screwfix do an ARC welder for £50, its 130A and comes with a little started pack.

Would this be any good for making up brackets and fixing them to frames? Would frame repair, modification and general street fighter esq work, be a bit too much for this welder?

Also what are the differences and benefits between ARC, MIG, TIG?

Thanks in Advance
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ZX6R C6F.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.

[Pete.]

Arc is cheapest and the most common DIY welder. You can buy the rods quite cheaply, it can be used outside in windy conditions, is very portable.

Mig is next-best for DIY. The sets are more expensive but it's easy to gain a reasonable weld with practice. Cannot be used in wind as it blows away the shielding gas. Downside is that you have to buy the gas, either in the tiny bottles that cost the earth for any amount of welding or by hiring a bottle of proper welding gas (like I do), which costs about £100 a year.

Tig is the most expensive of the three to buy and run. The hardware costs more and the shielding gas is pure argon which is double the cost of Mig. It cannot be used outside unless in very still air and the cost of running is higher. Once you have developed a reasonable skill it will give the tidiest results.

On balance I would say if cost, space and room are the primary considerations I would buy an arc welder (aka stick welder, more properly MMA welder). If you can afford the extra, get a tidy Mig welder, you'll get better results from a half-tidy MIG set, just don't forget to turn the as off when you're done.
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a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good

[stinkwheel]

Not much of a question then.

Ok, they all do the same thing, ie melts piece of wire up against a piece of metal so they join together. In order to do this effectively, you need to exclude oxygen from the point you are welding at.

A stick welder does this using stuff called flux which is round the outside of the welding rod (the middle being the metal wire). Electricity is passed down the rod, melts at the end, burns the flux, all joins together (in theory).

Stick welders are cheap to buy but are perhaps trickier to use. They are good for thick stuff but in the hands of a novice can turn into a device for blasting holes in bits of metal. Not so easy to do fine/thin stuff with.

MIG (stands for Metal Inert Gas) has a coil of metal wire that is propelled out of the end of the welding nozzle at a speed you set. The electricity moves along the wire which melts onto the workpiece. You can get wire with a flux core, the wire is expensive but the flux-core welders are cheap.

More traditional MIG welders use plain wire and flood the area round the weld site with an inert gas which you have to buy in cylinders. MIG welders are easier to use and are good for fine/thin work. If you get a powerful enough one, they'll also do anything a stick welder will do.

TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas) welders use an even more inert gas than MIG ones and do something different with the electric current (here's where it gets beyond me). You can weld non-ferrous metals using a TIG set such as aluminium. TIG setups are expensive.

You also get oxy-acetylene welding for which you use two gas cylinders and a rod of metal. It is an old fashioned way of welding (although technically you can use it to weld anything). It is particularly good for really thin stuff.

So, a novice (like I am) is probably best off getting the most powerful MIG set he can afford. I have been told that an inverter type set is the best one to go for. This setup would be most flexible.

From personal experience, the best thing you can get is an auto-darkening welding mask. This lets you use both hands on the nozzle and importantly, lets you see what you're doing. There is nothing quite like seeing what you're doing for getting a job done properly.

I was just getting the hang of my cheap, Chinese, gassless MIG (flux cored wire, it was the wrong welder to buy, I'd get a decent, second hand, inverter MIG set next time) when the motor jammed and caught fire. Whole thing went up, it sucked.

Keep a suitable fire-extinguisher near at hand and make sure your 'welding bay' is fireproof, you WILL set stuff on fire.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Rowey]

Thanks Geri and Stinkwheel, would the 130A ARC welder be sufficient for welding pannier brackets, and subframes?

The ARC sounds the best for my uses, as it's cheap to buy and run. My only concern is the strength of the welds on various metals and thicknesses.
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ZX6R C6F.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.

[stinkwheel]

[Pete.]

Yes, the stick welder would do that - BUT - there are some things to consider.

You have to practice - a lot - to get even a half-tidy weld. Not a problem coz all it will cost you is a box of rods & a decent suntan.

You can burn-through on thin metals, especially if you are welding a thicker bracket to a thinner frame tube.

You must get the workpiece clean of paint, rust & other contaminants, to get a good weld and give yourself half a chance.

You need to ensure you don't expose your eyes and skin to the light. Wear sleeves and get a decent head-mounted mask, and get some welding gauntlets (aka motorcycle gloves, see other thread ) You can very easily blind yourself with arc-eye, and even mild exposure can dry out your corneas enough to make it very uncomfortable. Shutting your eyes does no good at all the ultraviolet light just goes right through your lids.

I would advise:

Get some off-cuts from your local sheet metalworks. Just small stuff 2-3mm thick. If you tell them what you're about they will probably let you raid the scrap bin. Buy a 5" angle grinder, and get an abrasive flap disc like this:

https://www.abbeypowertools.co.uk/webupload/APOWER/DRAPER/APOWERLARGE41468_APT112.jpg

This disc is great for removing paint & rust without taking off too much material. I suggest 60 and 120 grit.
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a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good

[Big Pete]

all the above, plus - wear safety specs when you are chipping the slag off.
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Trust me, I`m an engineer
GarageOfPower.co.uk

[MarJay]

[Walloper]

Since we are well beyond the point of pedant....

In critical welds, use of a carbide cutter or bastard file to finish the prep is desirable, as this limits any chance of 'inclusions' in the weld from the particles of abrasive that grinding leaves embedded in the surface.
These are not normally visible to the naked eye, but over time it can lead to failure of the weld due to propagation of microscopic cracks where impurities lie.

Buy the book too. Or get your smelly-arse into night-school. Welding is still respected as a 'trade'. It is not a paper-round.

Enjoy and work safe. Arc-Eye is worse than carpet burns on your knees
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W-ireless A-rtificial L-ifeform L-imited to O-bservation P-eacekeeping and E-fficient R-epair

[Jamie S]

[Pete.]

Also, make sure the legs of your jeans are over your boots/trainers, because a piece of hot slag down the front of your footwear burns like a beeeeatch. Happened to me at college and it burnt a hole in my foot about 8mm deep.
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a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good

[Walloper]

I'd advise getting some decent PPE too BTW.
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W-ireless A-rtificial L-ifeform L-imited to O-bservation P-eacekeeping and E-fficient R-epair

[stinkwheel]

Ex RAF flying suits make good welding overalls. They are flame retardant cotton, pretty thick and have fastenings round the wrists and ankles.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[aero]

The last frame I built was stick welded, so were many Norton frames. Now I have a MIG. The thing is when welding thin tube, which is what you'll find on your average bike frame, you will need a DECENT stick set. a £50 one will not give a very stable arc.

You can get a decent set from ebay, IE and Oxford or a Pickhill for similiar sums. These are heavy oiled filled sets with high quality transformers that will last a life time.

I use a MIG now for two rerasons, one the smoke you get from stick welding is very unpleasant and fills your workshop very quicky. Stainless rods will require a extractor fan as the fumes are highly toxic. Two chipping the slag off is a real pain in the backside.

The other 'problem' with stick welding is that you have to be very skilled to use it. Especially on thin stuff. You need a set that is stable and highly controlable and a lot of practise at it. Personally I think it makes you a better welder, so never saw learning to stick weld as a problem.

Avoid Cheap MIG welders too. More trouble then they are worth. I bought a professional machine this time, well worth the extra, But a £350 Clarke machine will do a good job too. Clarke are the best of the available to all machines

https://i27.tinypic.com/2iuffdf.jpg

One of my old Oxfords
https://i26.tinypic.com/11rx0n5.jpg
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70's & 80's 4 stoke Yamaha Guru and professional workshop dweller.

[Whosthedaddy]

[aero]

I'm not riding anything you've welded!
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70's & 80's 4 stoke Yamaha Guru and professional workshop dweller.

[Walloper]

You can get an excellent finish using the wavy wire from Chain-link fencing too.

Ask for 'ferrous flux' so the nurse can draw the slag out your eyes with a magnet just to be on the safe side.
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W-ireless A-rtificial L-ifeform L-imited to O-bservation P-eacekeeping and E-fficient R-epair

[Ichy]

[Whosthedaddy]

[SoND]

[MattEMulsion]

I go for a MIG everytime when choosing a welder to suit your particular needs.
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Yamaha YZF-R6

[Blackwolf]

On the contrary, i found using a TIG welder for the first time easy, never know perhaps i'm a natural but i found MIG the best for the amusement factor of all the sparks (slag??) flying off
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Current: Ducati Multistrada 1200s

[MarJay]

[Whosthedaddy]

2 inch of weld will hold / support 2 tonnes (according to a Car is Born anyways).
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Current : MSX 125 Past : CBR 900RR Monkeybike : c50 LAC : ZXR750 H2 : FZR600 : ZX7R P3 : YW100 : TRX850: Trophy 900 T309 : GSXR 600 L0: Monkeybike : XJ6S Whosthedaddy

[Jamie S]