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ZXR 750 running issues. Carb icing? Fueling?

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Coxyzxr
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PostPosted: 18:11 - 29 Dec 2009    Post subject: ZXR 750 running issues. Carb icing? Fueling? Reply with quote

Back again! With definite running issues on the zxr guys. Possibly fueling.

Been running ok but lately (Unable to confidently attribute it to the cold due to not remembering) it's been a real pig in the low revs and sometimes the higher.

Feels like it's jetted really badly on the pilots/rich floatboals and such as from 2k to about 5 it's stutters and bogs like it's too rich.

Occasionally it starts running on only 2 or three cylinders.
If you stop at lights it will stall and pulling away's ... interesting.

I don't think it's electrics as when you get past 6k it's gets better, still occasionally surges and such but much better than below 6.

Likewise I feel it may not be carb icing as as far as I know carb icing gets worse the faster / more revs you go. (I had it a few years back and faster I went the more the bike stalle)

Making town driving a misery.

I've:
Checked air filter.
Drained float bowls (clean as a whistle)
wd'd spark plug caps and checked all the connections.
Had airbox off and checked for leaks and re-sealed using rubber grease just in case.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 18:33 - 29 Dec 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Carb icing would probably be less noticeable at high speed for a while, just making it far worse at low speed in the process. Would also likely solve itself if you sat at low speed for a while (ie, stuck in traffic as you don't dare filter with such a dodgy throttle).

Are the carbs standard? Dynojet kit? K&N? Aftermarket pipe?

All the best

Keith
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Coxyzxr
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PostPosted: 18:51 - 29 Dec 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
Hi

Carb icing would probably be less noticeable at high speed for a while, just making it far worse at low speed in the process. Would also likely solve itself if you sat at low speed for a while (ie, stuck in traffic as you don't dare filter with such a dodgy throttle).

Are the carbs standard? Dynojet kit? K&N? Aftermarket pipe?

All the best

Keith


Hi Keith, thanks for your time.

Carbs are standard, set up by me in the summer for the best results I could get Can't remember exactly on sizes but am running I think 130 outter mains and 128 inner cylinders. This size is below stock (stock being 135/132 if I remember correctly) but I always found it too rich and any bigger than stock and my clothes reeked of petrol. Ran sweet in the summer (what we had of one).

It's a J1 so it has low comp pistons and tame cams, hence the trouble I had with jetting over stock sizes.

It's also using 2x factory pro needles for the inner two cylinders as they run slightly richer taper and OEM needles on the outter two.

4 into 2 into 1 stainless, carbon end.

Incidently when I have the issues I occasionally get a strong smell of petrol too, only when low speed driving though.

Oh and forgot to mention when crusing at say 80/90 on the motoway and let go of the throttle and it pretty much stays at the given revs regardless so I could ride it without holding the throttle at all. Doesn't do this often but have noticed it in conjunction with the other issues.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 19:05 - 29 Dec 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Seems odd. Would expect the colder weather to result in the bike running leaner rather than richer.

Could be worth getting it a run on a dyno to check the mixture. Possible that the 4>2>1 is behaving very differently to the stock system and needs a very different shape set of needles, with you getting away with it in warmer weather. Lean at some rpm and rich at others. However I would be surprised if it made that much difference.

One reason I asked about a Dynojet kit is that the needles used in some aftermarket kits are renowned for increasing wear on the atomiser tubes, making the bike run quite a bit richer at some revs.

To count out carb icing lob some suitable fuel additive in for a tank (and try a few tanks with and without it). To be honest I doubt is will make any difference but at least it is an easy thing to count out this way.

All the best

Keith
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Coxyzxr
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PostPosted: 19:15 - 29 Dec 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
Hi

Seems odd. Would expect the colder weather to result in the bike running leaner rather than richer.

Could be worth getting it a run on a dyno to check the mixture. Possible that the 4>2>1 is behaving very differently to the stock system and needs a very different shape set of needles, with you getting away with it in warmer weather. Lean at some rpm and rich at others. However I would be surprised if it made that much difference.

One reason I asked about a Dynojet kit is that the needles used in some aftermarket kits are renowned for increasing wear on the atomiser tubes, making the bike run quite a bit richer at some revs.

To count out carb icing lob some suitable fuel additive in for a tank (and try a few tanks with and without it). To be honest I doubt is will make any difference but at least it is an easy thing to count out this way.

All the best

Keith


Hi.

It is very odd. Can't get my head around it.

I have balanced he carbs a few months ago when I rejetted but will check that again on hopefully the weekend. I may if I have time go over the carbs and perhaps go back to stock to see what gives. It's just a real misery at the mo which is a shame as i normally look forward to riding to work every morning regardless of weather.

FYI stock these bikes come with a 4/2/1 system, I have a 4to1 but it gave less mid range so stuck with my 4/2/1.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 20:28 - 29 Dec 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coxyzxr wrote:
FYI stock these bikes come with a 4/2/1 system, I have a 4to1 but it gave less mid range so stuck with my 4/2/1.


Different lengths of the pipes will affect where it makes power, and also where the "matching" flat spot will likely to be.

All the best

Keith
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Coxyzxr
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PostPosted: 21:26 - 29 Dec 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
Coxyzxr wrote:
FYI stock these bikes come with a 4/2/1 system, I have a 4to1 but it gave less mid range so stuck with my 4/2/1.


Different lengths of the pipes will affect where it makes power, and also where the "matching" flat spot will likely to be.

All the best

Keith


I've also heard good quality premium/ultimate/optimax fuel (the more expensive pump stuff from shell/bp) can help with carb icing.

Any truth to this? I can't imagine why.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 21:41 - 29 Dec 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

To be honest not sure. Possible, but also possible the opposite is true. Suspect it would be down to the particular fuel blend.

All the best

Keith
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hmmmnz
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PostPosted: 05:57 - 30 Dec 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

when was the last time you did the valve clearances??
i had no end of what i thought were fuelling problems,
which in fact turned out to be the clearances,
give it a go, and see if anything is out
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Coxyzxr
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PostPosted: 09:03 - 30 Dec 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmmnz wrote:
when was the last time you did the valve clearances??
i had no end of what i thought were fuelling problems,
which in fact turned out to be the clearances,
give it a go, and see if anything is out


Yeah err clearences.... Rolling Eyes

I haven't Sad I should of, I know I should of. I just haven't.
This is my main, daily transport so always pushed it off.

It's only done 60k Shocked

I rode it today and concentrated on the issues.
It starts fine, runs fine for the first mile or so then starts to get progressively worse.

I stopped(stalled actually) at the petrol station about 5 miles away, filled up then rode down the motoway, this time slowly keeping it under 5k and 65/70 and it actually seemed to get better the less I revved it. (harks back to Keith's post about it may not be so apparent at higher speed but will make issues worse for low speed) when I got off the motorway to do the 5 mile commute through town it was a bit dodgy at first but soon sorted out and was pretty much perfect after half a mile of town riding.

Should be noted it was raining pretty bad and quite cold. Also I live in the country and ride south 25 miles to the city to work and it's always(usually) a degree warmer in the city.

Could very well be carb icing as Keith advised.
Any further thoughts with the above in mind?

For the record I filled up with Shell V-power however I do believe this to be purely coincidental.
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0ddball
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PostPosted: 11:07 - 30 Dec 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

if it ran fine before im 99% sure its carb icing. Sounds the same as my symptoms on the same bike and i was getting it even before it started getting frosty about 2 months ago.

Never bothered to try curing it though as i bought a cheap car for the winter.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 11:24 - 30 Dec 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Make sure the filters for the carb heaters are clear.

All the best

Keith
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Coxyzxr
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PostPosted: 11:30 - 30 Dec 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
Hi

Make sure the filters for the carb heaters are clear.

All the best

Keith


Hi, doesn't run dedicated carb heaters but pumps coolant (presumably supposed to be warm) through the carb bodies instead. Unless this is what you were meaning? as there's no filter.

Regards
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 11:52 - 30 Dec 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Yes, that is what I meant and there is meant to be a filter in the pipes to the carbs. They have a reputation for getting blocked quickly on Kwaks.

All the best

Keith
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temeluchus
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PostPosted: 11:59 - 30 Dec 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only other thing that springs to mind is a leaky float valve on one or two of the carbs. This would cause rough running similar to what is described-ie dropping cylinders and strong whiff of petrol, but clears at higher RPM.

Can actually be mildly beneficial in winter as the slight leak helps cold starting X-D

Carb icing is still more likely, but its worth a look.
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Barry_M2
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PostPosted: 13:06 - 30 Dec 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, from what I gather, it runs ok when cold and starts to play up when the motor warms up a little? Runs on 3 (or 2), stalling... etc..

Initially I'd say fueling, but I could also be one of the coils playing up. When you had the float bowls off, did you remove the jets and clean them?

If it were me, I'd get it warmed up until it starts to missfire, see what cylinder it is and swap the plugs round to see if the problem follows the plug. If not, clean out the carb jets. If thats not it, see if you can find a spare coil and give that a go.

If its only running crap at low rpm, I'd suspect pilot jets.
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Coxyzxr
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PostPosted: 14:18 - 30 Dec 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barry_MC21 wrote:
So, from what I gather, it runs ok when cold and starts to play up when the motor warms up a little? Runs on 3 (or 2), stalling... etc..

Initially I'd say fueling, but I could also be one of the coils playing up. When you had the float bowls off, did you remove the jets and clean them?

If it were me, I'd get it warmed up until it starts to missfire, see what cylinder it is and swap the plugs round to see if the problem follows the plug. If not, clean out the carb jets. If thats not it, see if you can find a spare coil and give that a go.

If its only running crap at low rpm, I'd suspect pilot jets.


HI barry. thanks. I have spare coils so may replace on weekend just as a matter of course.

I intend to take apart carbs on wkend also if time permits. Looking to get a gpz500 or something for commuting when moeny permits as it's breaking my heart running the zxr in this weather everyday. Needs a major overhaul so need to get it off the road asap.
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base
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PostPosted: 22:38 - 02 Jan 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

i used to own a H2 i had similar symptoms to the ones you described and it was a sticking carb,
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