SV650 - Lights are on but nobody is home.....like its owner!

[Pigeon]

tl:dr Does my alternator or battery have bad juju? Or was the super cheap USB adaptor not the best idea?

I feel like a sponge on BCF, trying to soak up info. I've used some of the previous help received to get to a point and am hoping someone can advise.

Parked the bike last night, all good. Went to start it this morning and there was a very slight 1/4 move of the cylinders and nothing else. Dash lights on, but repeated presses of the start button didn't do much.
Switched the kill switch on, then off. Sat on the bike, put sidestand up. Clutch out, then in. Tried again, nada but the dash lights.

At the weekend I stuck in a USB adaptor into the 12v ciggy socket I wired into a fuse box that’s wired to the battery. No devices where connected to the USB ports, but I removed the adaptor from the ciggy socket just in case. Then stuck the battery on charge and went to work via the other bike.

9 hours later and Optimate is flashing green, indicating the battery is charged and holding its charge.

I unplug the charger and faff around, an hour passes and a multimeter on the batter terminals reports 13.14v

The bike starts instantly and battery is now 13.70v

I slowly increase the revs to 6k rpm and the output of the battery falls! 13.30v
I wasn't expecting that, I thought it was supposed to rise to near 14v, or am I wrong?

I switch on the lights and at tickover its 13.30v, then 12.70v@6k

If it's a 12v battery, then putting out 12.7 with all the lights on at cruising revs doesn't seem bad to me. But I don't know what I'm talking about.

One thing, the battery is a YT12ABS (correct for the bike), but its a Numax brand and only 9.5Ah with 120CCA. The Yuasa YT12ABS is 10Ah and 175CCA. Seems a big difference in CCA.

The Reg/rec has been replaced at some point with one that has a sticker claiming to be made by TourMax

I double checked the wires too/from the battery to my fuse box and I used solder, shrink wrap and insulation tape. There are no exposed live wires shorting that I can see.

I'm leaving it on charge (Optimate cable wired in to fuse box) to get to work. And will measure the v out of battery via Optimate adaptor (not as accurate, but should give a clue, was showing 13.11v) in the morning. Then check in the evening once home. Then I could plug back in the USB adaptor into the ciggy socket and see what happens after 24-48 hours.

Does that seem reasonable?

Do any of the readings above provide cause for further investigation?

Could the USB adaptor have caused this with nothing connected to it?

Many thanks again!!

[Nobby the Bastard]

Either your alternator or the wiring to it is fucked.
____________________
trevor saxe-coburg-gotha:"Remember this simple rule - scooters are for men who like to feel the breeze on their huge, flapping cunt lips."
Triumph Sprint ST 1050

[Pigeon]

[Nobby the Bastard]

[Pigeon]

[Carvel]

Reg/rec.
____________________
2002 Aprilia RSV1000R, Cbr600Fs, Mk1 B12, Vfr400 NC30...

Matt B: I can deal with crushed nuts to beat Ollie.

[Pigeon]

[Pete.]

[Pigeon]

Thanks Pete!

I'm not good with mechanics, but enjoy it. I'm useless with electrics and don't enjoy it, but maybe that's because I don't understand it even at a basic level. Must make more effort.

Will make a start Friday evening and maybe get lucky with earth.

A reg/rec from a CBR1000RR seems a good mod. It's larger and still fits. But that'll depend on the multimeter results.

I suspect I'll be back tomorrow asking for more translations of numbers

Cheers all!

[P.addy]

I would highly recommend an Electrex World reg/rec. Both my BB and R1 have have one. Give out superb voltage.

I would however be cautious, its an SV and the only experience I have had is electrical failure, same shape too. Started smelling of eggs.

[Carvel]

[sickpup]

[P.addy]

Someone with the surname Xing?

[sickpup]

[Pigeon]

Been in the garage for 3 hours probing stuff. Some of the results are junk though I think.

I was using a Draper 52320 (the budget one).

https://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w559/pigeon35/Random/draper_52320_zps169067e2.png


1. Checked battery for current leaks.
+ tester to - loom, - tester to - bat
Showed nothing at 200m DCA and 20m DCA.

I then put the USB adaptor into the ciggy socket (but with nothing connected to it. And registered 30.00 @ 200m DCA

So is that 30mA draw, surely not enough to flatten a 9.5Ah battery?
Would that be 9.5 / (30/1000) = 316 hours? mmmm, maybe 5 days of that would be enough to reduce the battery enough to not crank.
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2.Measure charging voltage between battery terminals (on fully charged battery from Optimate).
Lights on @ 5k rpm = 12.70v having idled at 13.30

"Under 13.5 or over 15 inspect the Stator Coil, reg/rec".

So this is as yesterday, 12.7v means a possibly bad sign
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3. Disconnect the generator coupler by the reg/rec. Check resistance on genny end of the 3 yellow wires.
I set the multimeter to 200 OHM and placed the red wire from multimeter to the first digit in the following list and the black to the second.
1-3 = 0.9
1-2 = 0.9
2-3 = 1.0
3-Earth I assume that is what the diagram meant by a horizontal black bar with wavey lines under it, sort of:
-------
\\\\\\\

Anyway, nada. 3-Earth = no reading. I was earthing on the subframe and the loom off the negative on the battery.

So I went:
3-1 = 0.9

The manual says the SV should be 0.2 to 0.55
So I'm well out, indicating "replace the stator"

But the multimeter was set to 200OHM with a
"+/- 1.5% rdg +/- 4 dgts"
So how can I trust that 0.9 isn't in fact 0.2 or 3?

I'm loathe to replace stator (£75) and lose £25 of recent oil on the back of that test which seems to have such a margin for error.
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4. Genny no load test
Multimeter set to 200 ACV
Engine running at 5k rpm
1-3 = 83
1-2 = 79
2-3 = 80
3-Earth missed this one I think because of above.
3-1 = 83

Spec = Over 70v. So that's good, no? The genny is hitting the reg/rec with a bunch of juice. Moreover it rose from 55-60v at idle to 80-85 at 5k rpm. Unlike the battery voltage test, which showed a collapse in voltage at higher rpm.
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5. Reg/rec inspection. WTF happened here! I got very lost.
https://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w559/pigeon35/Random/20140425_211802resized_zpsa7d2f79d.jpg

The multimeter was set to Diode (although the SV manual showed image which I now know means "Forward" and the diode on the Draper is set to "Reverse") But I cracked on carrying out the probes as per the sheet....or so I thought.
So when the positive was in Y1, Y2, Y3, B&W with the negative in the R. I got readings of 620+
When the positive was in B&W and negative in Y1, Y2, Y3, R then I got 620+. All others were 1.
Not exactly a range of 0.4 to 1.5!

There is no explanation of the Diode test in the Draper 52320 manual.
But there is in the 78998 manual.

"a. Touch the test probe tips to the diode or semiconductor junction you wish to test. Note the meter reading"
"b. Reverse the probe polarity by switching probe position, note the reading".
"c1. If one reading shows a value and the other reading shows 1, then the diode is good".
"c2. If both show 1, device is open"
"c3. if both are small or 0, device is shorted"

The SV sheet said "Diode Test" Which I did by placing the probes as per the grid. But seeing the Draper manual I did not do a diode test completely. And the SV sheet refers to "measure the voltage between the lead wires"
But hang on, thats not the Diode test
Should I have set the multimeter to 2000m DCV and carried out the test as per the grid instead of the setting you see in the pic?

But if that is the case, where is the voltage coming from?
The notes say "disconnect the generator coupler" That still leaves the B/W and R block going to the battery.
Was that reg/rec test in fact two parts, one the diode test and two a voltage test?

Sorry for making your head ache. Mine is fried

[TheCatSatOnTh...]

[Pigeon]

OK, so I followed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8EjV0IjW9Q to do the diode check and got the following:

M = multimeter lead
R = Positive on Reg/rec
BW = Negative on Reg/rec

[janner_10]

Just going on the output from the alternator (and the balance of the winding resistance) I would say your problem lies with the Reg / Rec.

What you are feeding into it is fine, buts its output is not enough. I may of missed if you have done it, but take the reading directly from the DC side of the reg / rev in addition to the battery terminal reading - this will confirm if your loom is good.

Also, hats off for trying to fix and diagnose yourself.

Makes a refreshing change to read someone 'having a go' Some right wet fart post lately in the Workshop section by folk that just haven't a clue and don't really want to learn. Some twat taking his bike to a dealers for an oil change being an example.
____________________
Yamaha FZS600 (Now gone to heaven) > CBR600F4i (SOLD) > '99 YZF-R1

[Pigeon]

[Clutchy]

While you are waiting for more advice, I'd so go and check everywire/connection on the charging circuit if you can, I have a 3 page read over 2 months and we could not work it out as it was intermittent, wasted a lot of money and it turned out to be a broken wire in the middle of the loom.

Might be worth a look anyway.
____________________
Malaguti F12 Phantom-Dead, Suzuki AY50- Dead, NRG power DD LQ, CBR125.
*33 BHP restriction up on 10/12/14* Current bikes/car: SV 650 S/ MKIV GOLF
Guide to pass your test with no lessons!

[janner_10]

[kramdra]

You need to check wiring. Regulators usually die because of poor connections. Almost every dead one will have burnt or heat damaged/corroded connections joining loom and if this was not repaired last time, it will happen again. It will also fuck the battery and stator. My cbr2500rr for example - no problems with regulator yet but the connectors are fucked, burnt and corroded.

As for the test procedures they are often a load of shit:

For example the stator coil ohm test - normal cheap multimeter cables can not accurately measure under 1R. This test is somewhat pointless and best to check voltage and do a load test on each coil. The actual voltage is irrelevant, as long as it is above 20v, rises with revs and all similar.

Load test - get 3x 2R, 200w rated resistors (or make, I use nichrome wire). Connect between phases, measure the voltage drop between each. This will also tell you the current so no need to measure it. If they seem fairly balanced, then all is good.

[Pigeon]

tl;dr Had some ups and downs Haven't finished, old reg/rec is welded itself to frame.


Went out to start 10:30, 5 mins later door bell goes and it's the postman with my shiny new GSX-R1000 reg/rec. Nice timing sir, oh and whats this, a cheque for £75 from SSE as a goodwill gesture for the xmas power outage. Hope this luck is a theme for the rest of the day.

Back to garage, 5mins later door bell again, parents have paid a surprise visit. Bike has to wait. We watched last weeks BSB round and I did lunch, they left at 4pm.

Back to garage. So to test the output from the old reg/rec direct. Disconnect the Optimate (green lights flashing) that's been on all night/day. Ignition on.....no dash lights. Tried it a few times, tried the side stand. Nothing. FFS!
Start to get that creeping feeling that I've bitten off more than I can chew and have made the situation worse and killed my bike!

I swear a lot and kick the clutch cover (not the smartest idea). At that exact moment of searing pain, the 250w Metal Halide floodlight that I fitted to the garage so I can work on bikes in near daylight blows! ***** **** ***** ***** Bulb is supposed to last 8,000 hours and I think its done maybe 500 in 18 months.

Starting to spot a theme with my dodgy wiring.

Luckily the darkness now provided by 2 15 year old 36w fluorescent tubes calms my panic attack.
Check the battery with multimeter 13.60v. So check mini fuses (specifically 10a ignition), they are fine. Check starter solenoid. mmm 30a fuse looks blown, can't see in the darkness. Try to extract it, can't. Use pliers gently to lever it out. It just disintegrates. The plastic is so brittle it just crumbles. How on earth did that blow by itself overnight? The only thing on was the Optimate.
That £75 cheque seems a long time ago.

Disconnect battery from loom, remove solenoid, get the fuse out, replace with a new and re-install. Double check there are no live wires shorting. Apply more insulation tape to bends and joins just in case.
Re-connect battery to loom.

Ignition on, we have lights, thank fuck!!

Use multimeter, check output from reg/rec with lights on and engine from tick-over to 5k rpm. I add an extra earth wire from the reg/rec to the crank case as a test. It does nothing, get same values as when testing battery. Starts 13.60 drops to 12.90. So .20 better, but confirms your thoughts, not a dodgy loom but the reg/rec.
Thanks to Brooks Barn + Royal Mail, we have a shiny new one.

Did the Diode test on new reg/rec No issues. 1's in the rights places and all the numbers were 538-540

Use a hacksaw to remove the single junction box on the GSXR unit, so have the 5 spade wires. The 3 for the stator I just re-crimp, solder, shrink wrap and insulate. The live and earth I fit spades to, solder, wrap and insulate. Unplug the old reg/rec and just plug the individual wires into the halves of the old junction boxes on the old loom.

Fire up the bike again and the battery reads 14.20v at just over tickover At 5k rpm it's rock steady at 15.00v (maybe a touch high now?). Lights on and its steady at 14.40v

I'm deliriously happy, thanks guys, brilliant result!

So just a case of simply unscrewing the old unit, screw in the new and button everything up. Except I can't get the old unit off. I've been trying for 90mins with "shock + release" spray. I've tried hitting the screwdriver with a hammer, tried levering the thing a little. All in the hope it cracks the rust. But all I've done is start to round off the heads.

There isn't a nut the other side, instead it looks like the screw goes through a collar. The ends of the screws poke out and appear split like a self locking bolt.

I'm at another loss here. I have a battery powered drill which I'm charging now. No idea if it's up to the job. But presume the only thing to do here is drill holes with increasing size of drill bit until I can get this bugger off?

Apologies for the Tef post, it's been a long day!

Light at the end of the tunnel. So close.

https://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w559/pigeon35/Random/20140426_173303resized_zps188d0cd9.jpg

[Carvel]

[P.addy]

15 is a little too high... my SV was reading 16.5v when it cooked itself.
Did you order the correct regulator by any chance...? I'm sure some bikes won't cry about it, like fitting R1 regulators to Fireblades etc but unsure if the SV is picky.

The highest reading I've had on a known healthy charging system is 14.4v. Glad to see you are fiddling though