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A different system other than the monetary system?

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L-Jam
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PostPosted: 16:07 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: A different system other than the monetary system? Reply with quote

Did a search on this expecting it to be already-discussed.

*cue drum roll*

It wasn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gKX9TWRyfs

Zeitgeist movement, I took it with a pinch of salt and haven't seen their latest film but the ideas raised are intriguing to say the least.

First they deconstruct the Federal Reserve, then how we are slaves to the banks/the elite/the government, then how the American Govt. destroys other nations and finally how they propose we rid ourselves of money as currency.

I personally think they're on to something. As an ideology it's ambitious to say the least; but it does beg the question. If people had nothing to fight over, would they fight?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 16:18 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has been discussed at length on BCF.

Essentially is it the greatest confidence trick ever pulled in broad day light and it is an example of social conditioning and holding two opposing contradictory thoughts at the same time.

I'll sum it up in short sentences.

#1 The bank/Elites/Government are ALL the same entity.

#2 Stealing via different identities is more acceptable than direct stealing.

#3 We think that the entities in #1 are doing us a favour, legitimising #2. Similar to a tyre repair man throwing nails on roads around his shop.

#4 People are so well conditioned they will actively defend #1, #2 , #3.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:39 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Re: A different system other than the monetary system? Reply with quote

L-Jam wrote:
we rid ourselves of money as currency.

OK, you go first, let me know how it pans out next time you need to buy petrol or bacon.

See the problem?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 16:54 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Re: A different system other than the monetary system? Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
See the problem?


There is no problem, it is a point #4 problem.

There is something called barter. Local businesses would do it all the time and they'd tell you over the phone and keep it out of the books.

Secondly you can have representative tokens to represent a certain amount of value.

Britain had had tally sticks, Islanders used shells or round stones.

The problem is when you give an entity the ability to make as many of those tokens as they please at negligible cost to themselves bearing no resemblance to productivity and resources. These are the banks/government/elites.

While at the same time preventing others from making such tokens.


Have a thought experiment.

Hyundai/Toyota.Kawasaki dollars. They are backed by a huge industrial capacity, knowledge, skills and technical know how.

UK £. They are backed by, I'll kill you if you don't use them.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 17:17 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Re: A different system other than the monetary system? Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
See the problem?

There is no problem

Did you just handwave away the issue of bartering for petrol? How's that going to work at Pay-at-the-Pump? Will we feed chickens and pieces of homespun into a hopper until Dorris in the kiosk authorises it?

I am straight up serious, explain to me how I can travel the country knowing that I will be able to barter for fuel everywhere using tally sticks or shells or whatever your favoured magical beans are.

Be as explicit and verbose as you like, I am genuinely interested in the answer.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:53 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Quack wrote:
Unintelligible gobbledygook


Haven't used bad karma rating on anyone yet, don't really like to, but I am getting a bit tired of this stuff. Please confine your comments to something us mere mortals can understand? Thank you.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:18 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Quack wrote:
How do you kill these things when they don't even exist?

https://drawception.com/pub/panels/2012/4-6/BQzWhmxtdN-2.png
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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 18:20 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you got change of a goat?
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iooi
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PostPosted: 19:02 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Re: A different system other than the monetary system? Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:

Secondly you can have representative tokens to represent a certain amount of value.

Britain had had tally sticks, Islanders used shells or round stones.


So that is what we have now. Only its evolved into money Wink

Itchy wrote:

The problem is when you give an entity the ability to make as many of those tokens as they please at negligible cost to themselves bearing no resemblance to productivity and resources. These are the banks/government/elites.


So in your utopia, where do we get these shells or round stones?

You see even in the old bater system Someone has to create the items to barter....
Hell I even think thats how banks started off. By looking afters peoples stones/shells. So they did not get stolen Laughing
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 19:02 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Re: A different system other than the monetary system? Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Be as explicit and verbose as you like, I am genuinely interested in the answer.


Simple a bank. Not banks as we know today but something similar to the Templar bank model.

This is a red herring anyway.

The major problems are:

Monopoly.

The ability of the bank to create unlimited tokens at zero cost and without the assets to back them up.

Or any sort of brake to the creation of such tokens, gold was once used as a brake.

Which allows them to do all sorts of things to enrich themselves (and make everybody else poorer) such as stealing with zero effort and also making people indenture themselves.
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Clutchy
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PostPosted: 19:13 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, I find the 2mm thick cards I carry in my wallet much more convenient than carrying chickens and buffalo fur Laughing
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 19:22 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Re: A different system other than the monetary system? Reply with quote

iooi wrote:

So in your utopia, where do we get these shells or round stones?

You see even in the old bater system Someone has to create the items to barter....
Hell I even think thats how banks started off. By looking afters peoples stones/shells. So they did not get stolen Laughing



Who said anything about a utopia?

Currently our banking system is riddled with intentional flaws which enrich a certain small minority of individuals. Removing some of the major flaws does not equate to a panacea. It just means that there is considerably less opportunity for those individuals to enrich themselves using those flaws.

The enrichment acts as tiny drag on everything and it is multiplied because everybody you interact with also suffers this drag.


It is like asking what would you do if you had an extra £x in your pocket?
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Last edited by Itchy on 19:24 - 11 Nov 2014; edited 1 time in total
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:23 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Re: A different system other than the monetary system? Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
Be as explicit and verbose as you like, I am genuinely interested in the answer.

Simple

It's really not.

Itchy wrote:
This is a red herring anyway.

It's really not.

This is not a theoretical question, or one which can be wished away. You have to actually solve it in order to turn your economobabble into reality.

So I'll ask again.

How would you go about persuading every petrol station in the country to accept the magic beans from your alternative bank?

AMEX isn't even universally accepted; what's your sales pitch?
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Clutchy
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PostPosted: 19:28 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not entirely sure what's wrong with our current system, works pretty well for me, can't see an alternative that will either be more convenient or more beneficial for me directly? Confused
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 19:36 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

As Itchy has sort of said, the problem isn't money as that is just a system of tokens. It is that the tokens can be generated and manipulated by a fairly large amount.

For most of us this is a non issue, but have enough power and you can make a lot of tokens by influencing how those tokens are generated and manipulated.

Current money is just like a hand of cards in a casino. In itself zero actual value but it does have a perceived value against which other things can be bet.

Put it this way, what do you think your chances are of winning a game of poker against someone who can bring as many decks of their own cards to the table as they want, sorted into whatever order they want.

All the best

Keith
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Pigeon
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PostPosted: 19:36 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do Bitcoins cover some of this?

One authority is not responsbile for an endless production of power, not diluting everyone else's "work"

As many have said You're gonna have to serve somebody

EDIT: 1% of the worlds population controls 50% of the worlds tokens.
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Mark_F
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PostPosted: 19:41 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Re: A different system other than the monetary system? Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

How would you go about persuading every petrol station in the country to accept the magic beans from your alternative bank?


Money was originally legitimised via taxes, the taxes people had to pay (using whatever was considered legal tender) created a demand for the gold/silver/shells/tally sticks or whatever was used as money.

Realistically people can (and do) make up their own tokens within their own (small) communities, however that doesn't work at all when venturing out of your very local area.

First thing to do though (whilst keeping the same money we use now) is to get rid of reserve ratio's, so banks can only lend what they have. The reserve ratio's would have to be increased gradually though, with plenty of notice, or the system will collapse.

Ultimately, with a properly educated and reasonable population, money could become completely redundant. That would be when people stop "having" to have whatever tat they see on TV despite them not needing it, or not being interested in it for more than 5 seconds. I say could, as I'm not sure our species could ever get over the "must have everything now" thing that's in our heads, leading us to create ever more crap as we replace stuff that doesn't need replacing, or buy crap that has no use other than landfill.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 19:51 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pigeon wrote:
Do Bitcoins cover some of this?

One authority is not responsbile for an endless production of power, not diluting everyone else's "work"


Bitcoin (or any other random pseudo currency is invented this week) to me seems to have the worst of all worlds. Just generated with a value not related to the difficulty generating it.

Sort of like gold which has a currency value massively in excess of any useful use of it, but without even being able to make jewellery from it.

Mark_F wrote:
I say could, as I'm not sure our species could ever get over the "must have everything now" thing that's in our heads, leading us to create ever more crap as we replace stuff that doesn't need replacing, or buy crap that has no use other than landfill.


To be fair, it is largely a fairly recent habit confined to a small proportion of the population.

All the best

Keith
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 19:57 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Re: A different system other than the monetary system? Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:


How would you go about persuading every petrol station in the country to accept the magic beans from your alternative bank?

AMEX isn't even universally accepted; what's your sales pitch?


By backing those magic beans with something tangible which cannot be counterfeit and one body does not have total monopoly over and that cannot be created from nothing.

Or incorporating this into the currency that exists, changing implied faith (if you lose trust in sterling you can change it for silver they used to say) to actual hard faith.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:03 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pigeon wrote:
Do Bitcoins cover some of this?

Fill your tank, offer to pay in Bitcoins and film the result?

I'm not disputing that fiat currency with (effectively) no reserve is a problem. However, anyone can dream up a magic beans solution, and many people do. I'm really only interested in ones that tackle the Petrol Problemtm head on.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 20:05 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:

Bitcoin (or any other random pseudo currency is invented this week) to me seems to have the worst of all worlds. Just generated with a value not related to the difficulty generating it.

Sort of like gold which has a currency value massively in excess of any useful use of it, but without even being able to make jewellery from it.


I don't know about that.

Bitcoins are limited, as is gold. Gold is actually incredibly difficult to get out of the ground and incredibly destructive to the environment to mine. The key point is that they are finite.

The tokens used by the banks today are not finite and have zero cost to produce. BoE wants to print 350bn, they press a few buttons instant devaluation.
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Tungtvann
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PostPosted: 20:08 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

Fill your tank, offer to pay in Bitcoins and film the result?

I'm not disputing that fiat currency with (effectively) no reserve is a problem. However, anyone can dream up a magic beans solution, and many people do. I'm really only interested in ones that tackle the Petrol Problemtm head on.

https://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/files/2012/04/bank-robbery.jpg

"Don't mind what pump I am, I'd like all the money in the till please."
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Mark_F
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PostPosted: 20:11 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
The key point is that they are finite.


That was a key problem with (precious) metal based money, sometimes the money supply needs to expand to account for an expansion in an economy (and it's handy if the supply contracts when needed too).

FIAT currency isn't the problem, it's the abuse of FIAT currency by those with the ability to abuse it, and I'm not sure how that can ever be addressed without a huge shift in the political system, which the population aren't really ready to push for or manage.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 20:24 - 11 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:

Bitcoins are limited, as is gold. Gold is actually incredibly difficult to get out of the ground and incredibly destructive to the environment to mine. The key point is that they are finite.


Bitcoins are just made up with nothing to back it, and there will certainly be exploitable flaws found. Plenty of gold mined, and the areas that produce it and so profit from it are doing so with no relation to anything useful they ctually produce (pretty much like printing money).

All the best

Keith
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