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| sidewinder |
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 sidewinder World Chat Champion

Joined: 24 Aug 2011 Karma :   
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 Posted: 12:47 - 24 Dec 2014 Post subject: How to check auto box |
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Hi all
Taking my brother to see a bmw 320i on Boxing Day.i know enough about cars .but never owned a auto.
Is there a way to check the auto box is doing what it should?
Cheers  ____________________ "Nitrous is like a cheap hooker, you want to hit it but are scared of the consequences |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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 Teflon-Mike tl;dr

Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :    
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 Posted: 13:13 - 24 Dec 2014 Post subject: |
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Locate the ATF dip-stick under the bonnet.... check the level, look at the colour, should be red, sniff it, should smell like a tractor; if brown, and smells, then needs an oil & filter change; if black, then the clutches have worn down and the oil's ever bee changed; if 'golden'.... some-one has filled it with engine oil.. or you have the wrong dip-stick!.... {Point worth noting; I once got asked to go look at a Granada for a Aunt who said 'it conked out'.. checked the engine oil... it had none... "I'll fucking KILL-HIM" was her immediate reaction.... "I TOLD him that was the gear-box dip-stick!".. Her B/F had run it dry of engine oil, checking wrong stick!}
Driving? You ought feel / hear the gear changes, see them on the tacho when needle drops/rises; it will probably shift all the way to 4th by about 45mph on light throttle; point it at a hill, and don't accelerate to see if it down shifts; floor it at about 30 on an NSL to make sure 'kick-down' makes it down shift; 'force-shift' selecting 1, 2, 3, on the shifter, to make sure they engage, and the motor revs past the change points if in 'force'; look for a button or 'mode' selector if a more sophisticated box, with 'economy' and 'sport' modes on it; playing with it will change the change-up / down revs/load...
Be prepared for some slightly alien sensation, especially the engine noise / revs seeming not to have much bearing on how quick the car's going.
AND.. if it seems a bit 'lack-lustre'.. try using 3, (or whatever it's marked') instead of 'D'... esp round town or on a country road; it'll stop it trying to clunk into top, and will change the rev/load change pots for better 'response'. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| UncleFester |
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 UncleFester World Chat Champion

Joined: 30 Jun 2013 Karma :   
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 Posted: 13:20 - 24 Dec 2014 Post subject: |
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If you take it for a test drive ( and haven't driven an auto before ) watch out for the 'creep' function that happens in D as soon as you take your foot off the brake.
Also you need to basically sit on your left leg and do not use it for ANYTHING!  ____________________ 2017 Z1000SX |
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| Vincent |
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 Vincent Banned

Joined: 16 Oct 2006 Karma :    
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| sidewinder |
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 sidewinder World Chat Champion

Joined: 24 Aug 2011 Karma :   
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 Posted: 13:45 - 24 Dec 2014 Post subject: |
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Brilliant cheers both for the info
apparently it has a full bmw history with recent service.so should be ok.. .ive never driven a auto before so should be a experience I know it's going to feel really slow.. ____________________ "Nitrous is like a cheap hooker, you want to hit it but are scared of the consequences |
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| Vincent |
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 Vincent Banned

Joined: 16 Oct 2006 Karma :    
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 Posted: 13:47 - 24 Dec 2014 Post subject: |
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I hadn't had an auto since about 1979 when I had a Dolomite but I really like mine now. With cruise control as well, driving is a cinch. Performance isn't too bad as the box has a Sport option but fuel consumption goes down a bit.
I had a few "mishaps" when going over to auto, mianly as I was driving a manual too. The easiest one was ramming the brake on when coming to a rolling stop thinking it's the clutch ....but it doesn't take long to get into the groove. ____________________ Space Is Deep
Last edited by Vincent on 13:51 - 24 Dec 2014; edited 2 times in total |
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| sidewinder |
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 sidewinder World Chat Champion

Joined: 24 Aug 2011 Karma :   
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| Vincent |
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| Vincent |
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| sidewinder |
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 sidewinder World Chat Champion

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| Teflon-Mike |
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 Teflon-Mike tl;dr

Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :    
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 Posted: 15:28 - 24 Dec 2014 Post subject: |
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| sidewinder wrote: | ive never driven a auto before so should be a experience I know it's going to feel really slow.. | Not necessarily; I learned to drive in Canada when I was 14, so did my lessons in auto; and have appreciated them ever since; but always had manuals util about fifteen years ago, when I driving a car was beginning to not be any 'fun' and changing gear, just a extra chore.
Seem to recall a publicity stunt, by Jaguar in the '60's, when they launched the E-Type Auto... to answer the suggestion the auto wAs going to be 'slower' .. so they pulled two show-room models, and auro and a maual and stuck them on a drag strip, with a top racing driver, possibly Sterling Moss, in the manual, and some woman, maybe even his wife, who I think either didn't have a driving licence or had just passed test, ad got them to 'race'.. woman in the auto 'won'.
Thing is, with an auto, you have the Torque-Converter; a fluid-flywheel, and unlike clutch, when it 'slips' it doesn't just waste energy rubbing the plates together making heat; if the 'drum' on the end of the crank is turning faster than the paddle on the end of the gear-box input shaft, the drum is lifting fluid up that it dumps onto the paddle, increasig the force on it.. hence 'Torque Converter' as it converts any excss engine revs to shaft torque, when in 'slip'.
Means you can put more of the engne's power to the wheels, ore of the time; all the power the engine makes being sent there, not beige wasted in 'slip', or down-time when the clutch is dissengaged, between cogs... but also, where if you revved the knackers off the engine to get at the big power... you would waste a lot of that wearing out clutch plates a manual, in an auto, the TC gives you much bigger chunk of it... again, helping you get ore of the engine's power to the road for more of the time.
Obviously the advantage was flattered in a straight drag-race.. but still..
I actually 'won' my current Civic Auto on the back of this pheomnon; we'd had a bit of car swapping going on round the family, and my Step-dad, put the civic on my mum's drive, thinking it might suit my Step-Dad.. who hates driving... it only creased his loathing, so he 'made' my mum drive it, as her Renault 'Barge' was on its last legs.. she hated it.... "I put my foot down and it just DOESN'T do ANYTHING!"... what she was actually grumbling about was that she'd hear the engine rev up, when she floored it (she's a bit f a lead foot!), from 2K to about 4.5.. where the power is...and the TC go into slip..... motor turning almost peak-power revs and putting most of that to the wheels through the TC, car was actually accelerating harder, than their manual Fiesta, that if you floored t, wouldn't instantly 'rev up' ad would have to climb through however many thousand rpm, making a lot less than peak power while it was at it.. but DID have the engine making noise sort of related to speed, rather than droning at fixed speed, seemingly not doing a lot... and exaggerated by just sticking the thing 'Ecconmy' D4, with the least responsive change points constantly trying to use highest gear, lowest revs..... "Well if YOU like it YOU can HAVE it!" was the final answer, and she bought another Barge... Hey I'm not going to grumble at a 'free' car! But rather amusing two-car family outing to Wales weekend before last, showing her just how 'responsive' an auto can be, swinging it round them mountain bends... she was also rather mute on her other 'gripe' about Auto's not having any 'engine braking', when she followed ad realised I wasn't 'always' on the foot-brake
Yeah.. stick in 'D' and leave it there; very easy to not get the best out of one, and for it to feel rather sluggish... but get used to one, learn where the change points are, learn to use the lower gears or program modes, very little reason they 'need' be much, if any slower or more boring to drive, even on a 'nice' road... meanwhile, on 'horrible' roads.. surrounded by 'idiot drivers'.. that seem increasingly more the 'norm' these days...... well, if you cant beat'em, join em, and let the box take some of the effort out of it; stick a talking book on the radio, relax and drive it like a Dodgem! (Curiously, I think it was actually a 'Dodge' auto I did my lessons all them years ago!)
As you may have guessed, I am a slush-box 'fan'.... not SO sure I'd want one on a motorbike though.... but a car, that gets used like a washing machine.. think they are rather maligned in this country... even the "Well they don't do good mpg" criticism is a bit misplaced... round town, where the slush-box comes into its own, you don't get good mpg anyway, the difference, if there is any is't that big, while on the motorway and the like, Torque Converter is 'locked', you are getting direct drive to the back wheels, same as in a manual... way you drive has more influence over mpg you get than whether you have to waggle a stick to change gear. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| arry |
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 arry Super Spammer
Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Karma :    
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 arry Super Spammer
Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Karma :    
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 Posted: 15:58 - 24 Dec 2014 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | 'force-shift' selecting 1, 2, 3, on the shifter, to make sure they engage, and the motor revs past the change points if in 'force'; look for a button or 'mode' selector if a more sophisticated box, with 'economy' and 'sport' modes on it; playing with it will change the change-up / down revs/load... |
Just to clarify. The 46 box arrangement has a sports and tiptronic 'manual' mode. With the car in D, flip the gearstick to the left to activate S mode - S will appear on the dashboard display. Now if you flick the stick up or down, it'll change gear manually, and M1, M2 etc will appear on the display. The box won't allow it to rev out and bounce the limiter - it'll assume you're being retarded and flick it up a gear. It can also be a bit lame changing down as it won't allow the downshift until it thinks it's going to drop into a suitable rev range. Can be quite frustrating. |
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| Vincent |
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 arry Super Spammer
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 - Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Oct 2013 Karma :     
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 Posted: 16:29 - 24 Dec 2014 Post subject: |
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My 740 has a "sealed for life" ZF with tiptronic and Sport mode. It had a "shudder" problem coming back onto the power after coasting. This was almost cured with a new filter, wiring harness (might as well when I was in there) and the correct Esso Mobil (7111?) fluid (at £16 a litre).
Filling is was a faff needing the car up level on ramps and had to be running as you pumped fluid into the box until it overflowed.
The rest of the shudder was cured with some "Dr Tranny" (Don't snigger) anti-shudder fix, which I had to get from the states.
Make sure it doesn't slip under load and changes up and down smoothly. If it has sport and tiptronic, push the lever left and go up and down all gears. At under 90,000 miles I wouldn't be too worried though, mine has done around 190,000 with a 4.4 V8 through it.  ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
Jaguar S Type 3.0 V6 Sport R, VW Transporter T5 GP LWB Shuttle 140ps DSG. |
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| sidewinder |
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 sidewinder World Chat Champion

Joined: 24 Aug 2011 Karma :   
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 Posted: 17:42 - 24 Dec 2014 Post subject: |
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All its advertised at is 320i auto .so no idea if it has sports modes and the like but it is a 2004 model.
Loads of useful info here guys.should help him not to buy another dodgy motor. .will probably get him to book it in if he does buy it.and get the gearbox oil and filter done  ____________________ "Nitrous is like a cheap hooker, you want to hit it but are scared of the consequences |
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 arry Super Spammer
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| CHR15 |
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 CHR15 Turbo nutter bastard

Joined: 14 Jun 2008 Karma :     
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 Posted: 01:05 - 25 Dec 2014 Post subject: |
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stick it in drive and get up to 30 then brake reasonably sharply to a stop.
if it feels like someone has bumped into the back of you just before you come to a standstill walk away.
its a sign of failing mechatronics solenoids.
just replaced them on my e63 which uses a similar (all be it more advanced) box and it isn't a particularly fun or cheap job.
stick it in sport manual mode and put it in 4th on a flat surface doing a constant speed. watch the rev counter carefully for it fluctuating up and down by ~100 rpm ish.
sign of a failing torque convertor / lockup clutch. which is again lots of money.
have a scan underneath and look for gearbox drips. no level sensor or warning so they can leak themselves dry. sumps are made of plastic and warp over time which causes leaks. zf have done 3 or 4 revisions on the design over the years. ____________________ Turbocharged drag thing / project death weapon / GK73A
Ste: I'm not entirely sure how you'd go about verbally abusing someone with a potato but I'm sure it's possible. |
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 - Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Oct 2013 Karma :     
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| sidewinder |
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 sidewinder World Chat Champion

Joined: 24 Aug 2011 Karma :   
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 Posted: 15:34 - 31 Dec 2014 Post subject: |
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Well we went and saw this bmw.it worked liked a peach shifted lovely and smooth.kick down was fine and nothing to be suspicious of.hechas booked it in for the gear box oil and filter to be chaged  ____________________ "Nitrous is like a cheap hooker, you want to hit it but are scared of the consequences |
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| arry |
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 arry Super Spammer
Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Karma :    
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 Posted: 15:39 - 31 Dec 2014 Post subject: |
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Make sure they know to use the correct oil. I don't know what oil it is in that particular box so well worth researching.
I nearly decided to change mine but then decided not to bother. I found a Fuchs oil that met all the technical specifications but the BM forums seem to go ape if you suggest anything other than the original Esso stuff about a hundred and fifty quid a change  |
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| CHR15 |
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 CHR15 Turbo nutter bastard

Joined: 14 Jun 2008 Karma :     
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 Posted: 16:11 - 31 Dec 2014 Post subject: |
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you have to use dielectric gear oil because the mechatronics wiring inside the gearbox is exposed to the oil.
i paid about £17 a litre for zf fluid. if you buy the same zf stuff with a bmw sticker on it its £21 + vat per litre.
it takes about 7 litres for a sump change. ____________________ Turbocharged drag thing / project death weapon / GK73A
Ste: I'm not entirely sure how you'd go about verbally abusing someone with a potato but I'm sure it's possible. |
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| sidewinder |
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 sidewinder World Chat Champion

Joined: 24 Aug 2011 Karma :   
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 - Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Oct 2013 Karma :     
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 Posted: 15:02 - 01 Jan 2015 Post subject: |
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Worth double checking. I don't trust BMW main dealers, let alone independent specialists...
On the ZF transmission, it's often this stuff, which our resident oil man seems to stock...
https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-69401-mobil-atf-lt-71141-automatic-transmission-fluid.aspx
It's not just using the correct oil, but the fill procedure is very complicated. I'd also ask them how they do this. When I did mine, you had to put in a set amount, say 5L. Run the car to get the transmission oil to a certain temperature, as measured with the INPA software and an OBD cable. At this temperature, run through all gears manually then, return to Neutral and pump oil in with the engine still running until it overflows from the fill hole. If you don't follow this procedure, there will be at least 1L too little oil in the box. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
Jaguar S Type 3.0 V6 Sport R, VW Transporter T5 GP LWB Shuttle 140ps DSG. |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 11 years, 279 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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